lostgirl78

Back again....And I need some real advice!

76 posts in this topic

13 minutes ago, lostgirl78 said:

He hasn’t outright given me an ultimatum, it’s just understood that he considers it cheating. And if I did cheat again, and he found out about it, he will leave. But we haven’t even discussed my sexuality in over a year. It’s like if it’s not talked about he thinks I will forget about it. If I stood up to him and said, hey, I really want to have a sexual relationship with a woman, I know he’d say that’s it. He’d ask for a divorce. He’s not okay with sharing me with anyone. He’s not okay with me having any intimacy with anyone but him. Even if it’s only emotional. 

This all sounds very much like my husband, it’s like they’re almost the same guy. He’s told me if exploring my sexuality is something I need to do, than I have to do it without him...meaning it’s my needs or his. He’s specifically said that he will leave if I go behind his back. And same as you, we haven’t muttered a word about my sexuality in over a year, I got tired of fighting and feeling like crap, so I just stuffed it all away in order to keep the peace. I wish I had advice for you, but I haven’t figured out how to navigate it myself 

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@Cute&Curious and @lostgirl78 is it bad that I would leave my husband if he downright said no way no how? Yes I love him and do not want to break up my family but I need to prioritize myself.  Hubby is not excited for such a day if it EVER comes but if a day comes in which me and a woman 'connect' he is hoping he will be ok with it. We both realize he may not be and hence our marriage could potentially end over it.  But we have only known/realized my bisexuality for a little over a year now and there has definitely been alot of talking and crying!  But I outright told him I would not blame him if he left me over this cause honestly if was other way around I probably would leave him.  So love him for being a better person than me!! Hopefully you girls can get your guys talking and figure something out!

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8 hours ago, JESV said:

is it bad that I would leave my husband if he downright said no way no how?

No, of course not, you’ve just got the guts to make yourself a priority, there’s nothing bad about that.

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ugh this conversation is so hard.   i have the husband who says he is ok with it (but i’m not convinced), i have the girl (and we r so scared of consequences), i have me and my very jumbled up and confused mind (which is probably the biggest enemy bc it is afraid of the raw truth) and then i have a lot of data....sadly, no conclusions other then wanting both & knowing it is the balance that keeps me going.  

girls... we r all in this and trying to navigate what we need, want and feel.  we also have responsibilities, commitments and morals that are constantly challenged.  everyone’s story is unique - but the more “we” all talk, share and understand this piece of our lives, the closer we get to being fulfilled and free (hopefully)... or we can all remain tortured and there for each other :)

Apologies for the ramble and mind dump... needed to get it out somewhere and this seamed like the most ideal spot...

 

Edited by TBD78
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18 hours ago, lostgirl78 said:

He hasn’t outright given me an ultimatum, it’s just understood that he considers it cheating. And if I did cheat again, and he found out about it, he will leave. But we haven’t even discussed my sexuality in over a year. It’s like if it’s not talked about he thinks I will forget about it. If I stood up to him and said, hey, I really want to have a sexual relationship with a woman, I know he’d say that’s it. He’d ask for a divorce. He’s not okay with sharing me with anyone. He’s not okay with me having any intimacy with anyone but him. Even if it’s only emotional. 

 

17 hours ago, Cute&Curious said:

This all sounds very much like my husband, it’s like they’re almost the same guy. He’s told me if exploring my sexuality is something I need to do, than I have to do it without him...meaning it’s my needs or his. He’s specifically said that he will leave if I go behind his back. And same as you, we haven’t muttered a word about my sexuality in over a year, I got tired of fighting and feeling like crap, so I just stuffed it all away in order to keep the peace. I wish I had advice for you, but I haven’t figured out how to navigate it myself 

It's interesting how so many women here on Shy talk about how they are sacrificing their sexual and emotional needs in the interest of not destroying their marriage and breaking up their family, which often includes small children, but how their husbands deliver or imply ultimatums to the effect that they will swiftly end the marriage if their wife seeks to explore her bisexuality. These men don't seem at all concerned with contributing to the survival of the marriage, by acknowledging and supporting their wife's needs, and therefore to keeping the family together, and it seems to me that this really says alot about the institution of heterosexual marriage. 

Where in the marriage vows does the male partner say 'It's my way or the highway'? I believe the phrase 'for better or worse' is meant to cover some difficult issues and circumstances...and what about love? Shouldn't loving someone, especially to the degree that you've actually had children with them, mean that you want that person to be happy, healthy and whole - to be who they really are, and not who you want them to be? If you do actually love someone unconditionally, doesn't that mean that you would allow them to grow and develop as a person, and therefore that you would accept that at times there might need to be flexibility and compromise in the marriage? Or does monogamy, which seems to be interpreted by some people as a form of ownership, assume precedence over all else, to the extent that any infringement on that must necessarily lead to the end of the marriage?

Now that lesbians and gay men are able to legally marry here in the UK and elsewhere, it's given us pause to look closely at the institution of marriage, to decide how we would like to proceed. Some have run right out and gotten married straight away, while others, like my partner and I, have taken our time to consider whether what is essentially a heterosexual institution is right for us. Most lesbians and gay men I know want to enjoy the same legal protections and rights as hetero people in society, so many eventually opt for marriage to guarantee those, but what seems to be very different is our general perspective on flexibility and compromise within long-term partnerships and marriage, probably because up until recently we had no choice but to create and live within our own version of 'marriage', both with and without children, and we have not been subject to the written and unwritten rules of patriarchy and hetero male privilege, so have been free to create our own agreements to suit ourselves and the realities of our lives. Of course some people, whatever their sexuality, do demand monogamy in any kind of sexual/romantic relationship, but from what I've seen and experienced, lesbians and gay men tend to be more open, flexible and creative in their approach to long-term partnerships and marriage. 

The other thing that really strikes me is that we as lesbians and gay men don't take love and our relationships for granted, because we have had to fight for them, every step of the way. It wasn't long ago that the phrase 'the love that dare not speak its name' was used to describe same-sex relationships, and we were variously arrested, put into mental institutions, and had our children taken away for being homosexual...and even today, as is evident here on Shy, being gay still isn't totally acceptable, and we encounter problems and rejection among our own families and friends, and in wider society. So, when we form a partnership, we tend to be much more understanding and flexible about the needs and desires of our partner, and are far less apt to be willing to throw our relationship into the bin at the first sign of trouble. Sure, our relationships fail, just as hetero ones do, but not usually because they snap due to inflexibility. 

Perhaps the heterosexual world could learn a lesson or two from us... 

Edited by BenedettaC
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13 minutes ago, BenedettaC said:

 

It's interesting how so many women here on Shy talk about how they are sacrificing their sexual and emotional needs in the interest of not destroying their marriage and breaking up their family, which often includes small children, but how their husbands deliver or imply ultimatums to the effect that they will swiftly end the marriage if their wife seeks to explore her bisexuality. These men don't seem at all concerned with contributing to the survival of the marriage, by acknowledging and supporting their wife's needs, and therefore to keeping the family together, and it seems to me that this really says alot about the institution of heterosexual marriage. 

Where in the marriage vows does the male partner say 'It's my way or the highway'? I believe the phrase 'for better or worse' is meant to cover some difficult issues and circumstances...and what about love? Shouldn't loving someone, especially to the degree that you've actually had children with them, mean that you want that person to be happy, healthy and whole - to be who they really are, and not who you want them to be? If you do actually love someone unconditionally, doesn't that mean that you would allow them to grow and develop as a person, and therefore that you would accept that at times there might need to be flexibility and compromise in the marriage? Or does monogamy, which seems to be interpreted by some people as a form of ownership, assume precedence over all else, to the extent that any infringement on that must necessarily lead to the end of the marriage?

Now that lesbians and gay men are able to legally marry here in the UK and elsewhere, it's given us pause to look closely at the institution of marriage, to decide how we would like to proceed. Some have run right out and gotten married straight away, while others, like my partner and I, have taken our time to consider whether what is essentially a heterosexual institution is right for us. Most lesbian and gay people I know want to enjoy the same legal protections and rights as hetero people in society, so many eventually opt for marriage to guarantee those, but what seems to be very different is our general perspective on flexibility and compromise within long-term partnerships and marriage, probably because up until recently we have had no choice but to create and live within our own versions of 'marriage', both with and without children, and we have not been subject to the written and unwritten rules of patriarchy and hetero male privilege, so have been free to create our own agreements to suit ourselves and the realities of our lives. Of course some people, whatever their sexuality, do demand monogamy in any kind of sexual/romantic relationship, but from what I've seen and experienced, lesbians and gay men tend to be more open, flexible and creative in their approach to long-term partnerships and marriage. 

The other thing that really strikes me is that we as lesbians and gay men don't take love and our relationships for granted, because we have had to fight for them, every step of the way. It isn't long ago that the phrase 'the love that dare not speak its name' was used to describe same-sex relationships, and we were variously arrested, put into mental institutions, and had our children taken away for being homosexual...and even today, as is evident here on Shy, being gay still isn't totally acceptable, and we encounter problems and rejection among our own families and friends, and in wider society. So, when we form a partnership, we tend to be much more understanding and flexible about the needs and desires of our partner, and are far less apt to be willing to throw our relationship into the bin at the first sign of trouble. Sure, our relationships fail, just as hetero ones do, but not usually because they snap due to inflexibility. 

Perhaps the heterosexual world could learn a lesson or two from us... 

So... When the seminars begin?? We probably need more than sexual education from you :P :)

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54 minutes ago, kairi said:

So... When the seminars begin?? We probably need more than sexual education from you :P :)

 

3 minutes ago, TBD78 said:

such a wise woman @BenedettaC 

@kairi and @TBD78 - Do you think I have a future as an Alternative Life Coach?

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28 minutes ago, BenedettaC said:

 

@kairi and @TBD78 - Do you think I have a future as an Alternative Life Coach?

100% u helped me so much when i was spinning out of control last year and i am forever grateful @BenedettaC

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1 hour ago, BenedettaC said:

It's interesting how so many women here on Shy talk about how they are sacrificing their sexual and emotional needs in the interest of not destroying their marriage and breaking up their family, which often includes small children, but how their husbands deliver or imply ultimatums to the effect that they will swiftly end the marriage if their wife seeks to explore her bisexuality. These men don't seem at all concerned with contributing to the survival of the marriage, by acknowledging and supporting their wife's needs, and therefore to keeping the family together, and it seems to me that this really says alot about the institution of heterosexual marriage. 

I completely agree, women are way more likely (and actually expected) to make sacrifices for the best interest of the marriage. Men are seriously lacking in that department, and that IS a problem. However, if we followed that same path and decided to ‘throw in the towel’ and leave because we can’t have what we want (in this case, freedom to explore women sexually/romantically), we’d really be no better than them. There has to be some sort of healthy balance, just wish I knew what that was. Why should it be a matter of his happiness or mine, where’s the happy medium?

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2 hours ago, Cute&Curious said:

I completely agree, women are way more likely (and actually expected) to make sacrifices for the best interest of the marriage. Men are seriously lacking in that department, and that IS a problem. However, if we followed that same path and decided to ‘throw in the towel’ and leave because we can’t have what we want (in this case, freedom to explore women sexually/romantically), we’d really be no better than them. There has to be some sort of healthy balance, just wish I knew what that was. Why should it be a matter of his happiness or mine, where’s the happy medium?

It's clearly a matter of establishing and managing expectations...and of women expecting and also DEMANDING more of their husbands, and of men in general. (Easier said than done, I know.)

Same-sex relationships tend to be far more egalitarian, as they lack the stereotypical gender roles and associated 'masculine-feminine' power dynamic (and I do mean 'masculine-feminine', in the sense that the male partner drives it) that characterizes heterosexual relationships. Consequently, there isn't the 'male tyranny' that I discussed earlier in this thread, and it tends to be the case that each partner expects total equality in terms of decision-making in all aspects of the partnership (sexual/romantic/domestic), unless the couple have agreed otherwise. Having said that, there can be a disparity in the power dynamic even in same-sex partnerships, as one person may have a much stronger personality than the other, but again, it won't be based on gender, or male privilege and entitlement, as it often is in hetero relationships. 

Not only is more expected of women in hetero marriage, and in the home, but also in the workplace, where we all see mediocre male employees being promoted all the time, simply because they've been with a company or in a particular role for a certain amount of time, while women have to be truly exceptional to get the same promotion (usually for less money)...

So yes, we women all have our work cut out for us, and we all need to try to make changes to the problematic gender-based power dynamics and resultant sexism within our own lives, with a view to those changes also having an impact on the grand scheme of things. It can be done... :)

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5 hours ago, BenedettaC said:

 

@kairi and @TBD78 - Do you think I have a future as an Alternative Life Coach?

If you help me change my life i'll tell you  :P

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Wow, looks like my post got totally taken over and turned into a feminist “all men are evil, and we must rise against” post. 

I’m sure looking at all of the comments here, that I’m not going to be the most popular person her on Shy’s after I say this. But I really don’t care. 

I don’t hate feminism, I’m all about women getting equal pay and opportunities. I’m 100% for gender equality. But there have been a lot of things stated on this post that I do not agree with. 

I think that when you go into a marriage expecting monogamy, it’s unfair to “demand” for your partner to be okay with you going outside of your marriage for sexual or emotional intimacy. Anyone would be blindsided by that conversation. If you enter a marriage, heterosexual or homosexual, and you think your partner is straight or gay, and then years later, find out that they are actually bisexual and want to be with someone other than yourself, of course you aren’t going to be okay with that. It’s not what you agreed on when entering the marriage. I would be surprised and insecure if my husband told me that he was bisexual and wanted to explore that part of himself. So I don’t blame him for not being okay with my sexuality that was unknown to him when we got married. 

As far as saying that gay relationships are more flexible, that isn’t necessarily true either. I know a lot of gay and lesbian couples who are very monotonous. I also know several who have gotten divorced due to infidelity. Just like I know many heterosexual couples that are in open marriages and are perfectly happy. I don’t think that it’s fair to say that one is more flexible than the other. That’s just a very general statement that’s really untrue. 

 

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44 minutes ago, lostgirl78 said:

Wow, looks like my post got totally taken over and turned into a feminist “all men are evil, and we must rise against” post. 

@lostgirl78 - We didn't mean to take over your post. It's just a discussion, with people offering their comments and opinions, and nothing more. 

If you read more carefully, you'll see that at no point did anyone say or imply that 'all men are evil, and we must rise against'. I'm sorry to see that you've taken the discussion that way.

Further, my comments about gay relationships being more flexible are based on my own experience of living as a lesbian for the past 30 years, and the experiences of my brother (who is also gay) and our friends and acquaintances. My statement 'from what I've seen and experienced, lesbians and gay men tend to be more open, flexible and creative in their approach to long-term partnerships and marriage' makes it very clear that I'm speaking from my own perspective and experience. In an earlier post in this thread, I also said, 'Exclusivity in romantic partnerships and in marriage in both hetero and gay culture is still the norm, although polyamory is becoming increasingly more acceptable...and some people...are open to that discussion, while others aren't', so I didn't say that people in lesbian and gay relationships aren't ever monogamous, or that monogamy isn't still the norm to which they aspire.

I just wanted to clear up any misunderstandings. 

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21 minutes ago, lostgirl78 said:

I think that when you go into a marriage expecting monogamy, it’s unfair to “demand” for your partner to be okay with you going outside of your marriage for sexual or emotional intimacy.

 

21 minutes ago, lostgirl78 said:

I don’t blame him for not being okay with my sexuality that was unknown to him when we got married. 

This is how I’ve been feeling with regards to my own marriage. My husband’s reaction frustrates me, because he’s assumed so much control, too much. I should be able to count on his acceptance and support, but I can’t expect him to be ok with non-monogamy when we’ve always been monogamous. I don’t really blame him for not being ok with me going outside our marriage for sexual/emotional intimacy...but I do blame him for not making ANY effort to understand where I’m coming from. At this point, I’d just like to be in a place where we could talk about it, instead of hiding from it. It isn’t going anywhere, might as well face it.

 

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You've all made great points. You're right @lostgirl78 you can't expect him to be ok with it and if it was the other way around you wouldn't be ok either. You made a promise to each other after all.

But....from my personal experience....coming out to my husband, has affected our relationship in a negative way. He encouraged me to explore, was excited by it, but once I'd had a taste of it, he got scared and was uncomfortable and insecure. Now I'm constantly watching my every move and making sure he's happy. My affection towards him can be forced at times and emotionally draining. When he was ok with me exploring, I loved him so much more for it and we were in a good place. The thought of us separating never crossed my mind because I had him and we were happy. Now the slightest thing can cause an argument. I can't change what's happened, I can't regain his trust, at least not fully, and I wish he would believe me when I tell him that I don't want to leave him. But all that is my doing, not his, it's just the way it is and I don't regret telling him.

On the plus side, I can talk to him about my sexuality. It's not some big secret to lock away and forget about. He doesn't always like to hear it but we can laugh and joke and check out attractive women etc and I love being able to do that with him. I feel like if I hide it completely, as if it isn't there, it won't do any favours to our relationship. It's part of me, it's who I am, and in all honesty, if he can't accept me for that then we can't be together. I know it's a big deal to expect him to accept it but I can't change who I am either! 

Everyone is different, I understand that.....I'm just trying not to lose myself in the process of figuring it all out.

Edited by lsroses
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13 minutes ago, lsroses said:

On the plus side, I can talk to him about my sexuality. It's not some big secret to lock away and forget about. He doesn't always like to hear it but we can laugh and joke and check out attractive women etc and I love being able to do that with him. I feel like if I hide it completely, as if it isn't there, it won't do any favours to our relationship. It's part of me, it's who I am, and in all honesty, if he can't accept me for that then we can't be together. I know it's a big deal to expect him to accept it but I can't change who I am either! 

 

This is where I am...hiding it completely, as if it isn’t there...and it certainly isn’t doing any favours to our relationship. I’m not sure he realizes how damaging it is honestly. I can’t tell you what a difference it would make to simply be able to talk about it, and like you said, laugh and joke and check out attractive women. To feel accepted rather than rejected would make all the difference in the world.

Is this where you are too @lostgirl78? Maybe @lsroses can offer some advice as to how to get to the ‘plus side’ lol.

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52 minutes ago, Cute&Curious said:

 

Is this where you are too @lostgirl78? Maybe @lsroses can offer some advice as to how to get to the ‘plus side’ lol.

I'm so sorry, I realise how that sounded now...I'm afraid that's me.....ever the optimist....looking for a positive in the shit storm I created. :rolleyes:

All I can say is that we were at that point of never mentioning it and it was killing me. It had to change and be acknowledged. We go on date nights and make sure we talk.....dinner (he's always happier with a full belly), a few drinks and then sit and talk as long as possible. I told him on one of those nights that I needed him to be ok with me talking about it. I wanted to be open about my desires and attractions and I wanted him to ask me questions because I hated it being some big secret. We took small steps from there. He's not always happy, but i do it anyway. But that's just me and definitely not right for everyone else.

I'm actually in exactly the same position as @JESV. I've told him I can't promise I'll never meet someone and want to have a relationship of some kind and I understand if he can't handle that. I'm just being realistic and honest with him because I know myself....i know I love him....but I also know I have no control over my urges and desires. I would rather give him the option to walk away than suppress feelings I've already kept hidden for so long.

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@lsroses I know what you were saying, that was just my failed attempt at a joke lol. I admire you for placing yourself in a reasonable position. I was just curious how you got there, as it’s a place I’d very much like to be.

Thanks for the insight, I like your approach, I may have to try this myself...because the silence and hiding is NOT working out for me, it’s making me crazy and I can’t go on living this way.

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3 hours ago, Cute&Curious said:

@lsroses I know what you were saying, that was just my failed attempt at a joke lol. I admire you for placing yourself in a reasonable position. I was just curious how you got there, as it’s a place I’d very much like to be.

Thanks for the insight, I like your approach, I may have to try this myself...because the silence and hiding is NOT working out for me, it’s making me crazy and I can’t go on living this way.

I would advise that you try to at least get to the point where you can talk to your husband about being bisexual. From what you have posted here and elsewhere, the enforced silence is hurting you. The topic may make him uncomfortable but that doesn't make it a shameful secret. You didn't say that you shot a man in Reno just to watch him die, you said you appreciate the female form. For you currently, this *is* the love that dare not speak its name, and that seems terribly unfair.

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5 hours ago, Cute&Curious said:

@lsroses I know what you were saying, that was just my failed attempt at a joke lol. I admire you for placing yourself in a reasonable position. I was just curious how you got there, as it’s a place I’d very much like to be.

Thanks for the insight, I like your approach, I may have to try this myself...because the silence and hiding is NOT working out for me, it’s making me crazy and I can’t go on living this way.

It's working for me for now but everyone is different. We are all making our choices based on several things that need to been taken under consideration. One is how much you are willing to sacrifice   and are you in a place were you can support this sacrifice?  :) I am sure @lsroses worked hard to achieve "the reasonable position" she is in but everything comes with a price as we all know.

This is my personal opinion. Whoever does not agree can complain to the manager :P

Edited by kairi
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6 hours ago, Cute&Curious said:

@lsroses I know what you were saying, that was just my failed attempt at a joke lol. I admire you for placing yourself in a reasonable position. I was just curious how you got there, as it’s a place I’d very much like to be

I knew you were joking, don't worry. That's was my failed attempt at one back. Ha! 

Honestly, it's the only positive to come out of all this, for me. 

I think you've proved your loyalty to your husband now and after a while it just starts to feel like you're being punished for something you can't change and have no control over. Our last big fight was over this exact thing..... I was being punished and I couldn't live with it anymore and neither could he, so we talked and reached a compromise. The insecurities haven't gone away, we're just more aware of what the other person feels when we react like that. Either you'll give everything up in that moment or you'll find a way, together to keep going in a way that means you're both a little happier.

He's afraid of it, but ignoring it doesn't change anything or make it disappear.

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Thanks everyone for your opinions/advice/ support. I’m going to step out of this discussion now because it’s not my thread and I don’t want to take over. Sorry for hijacking your thread @lostgirl78, this one really hits home. I think at least some of this applies to you too, so hopefully you’ll benefit from the insight of these lovely ladies as well. 

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14 hours ago, lostgirl78 said:

I think that when you go into a marriage expecting monogamy, it’s unfair to “demand” for your partner to be okay with you going outside of your marriage for sexual or emotional intimacy. Anyone would be blindsided by that conversation. If you enter a marriage, heterosexual or homosexual, and you think your partner is straight or gay, and then years later, find out that they are actually bisexual and want to be with someone other than yourself, of course you aren’t going to be okay with that. It’s not what you agreed on when entering the marriage. I would be surprised and insecure if my husband told me that he was bisexual and wanted to explore that part of himself. So I don’t blame him for not being okay with my sexuality that was unknown to him when we got married. 

@lostgirl78 - Just to be clear, if you are referencing me here, I never said that women should 'demand' that their partner be fine with them 'going outside of their marriage for sexual or emotional intimacy', just this:

 

17 hours ago, BenedettaC said:

It's clearly a matter of establishing and managing expectations...and of women expecting and also DEMANDING more of their husbands, and of men in general. (Easier said than done, I know.)

 

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Following to see all the advice....same boat, almost exactly. I don't have any advice to offer, just that I completely understand and have the same questions. 

 

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